Bulk upload status?

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phnord
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Re: Bulk upload status?

Post by phnord »

This is a huge problem for me too. I just created a 60 song index from scratch and went to upload it and found that the Bulk Upload feature had been removed. Inputting each and every one of those 60 entries by hand is tedious beyond measure; I can hardly imagine how you expect people with 300+ song indexes to manage.

I am most likely going to end up having to reverse engineer the index format on my jailbroken iPad in order to play the gig I have lined up on Friday night. I understand having security concerns, but taking a core feature of a product that we've payed 15x the price of a usual app for offline with no notice, no return date and with the only fallback being a tool that is completely inadequate for the average user is not the way to handle them.

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Phil Smith
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Re: Bulk upload status?

Post by Phil Smith »

spinality wrote: Just to confirm, you are referring to the ability to add single entries via the "songs titles" menu entry on my.igigbook.com? As opposed to some other mechanism that I may have overlooked?
There is no other mechanism, you have not overlooked anything. For perspective, I and others have created numerous indexes containing hundreds of entries using the "Song Titles" menu option.
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phnord
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Re: Bulk upload status?

Post by phnord »

Phil Smith wrote:
spinality wrote: For perspective, I and others have created numerous indexes containing hundreds of entries using the "Song Titles" menu option.
For perspective, you are getting paid to create a product; we are paying you to be able to use it.

The issue here is that you removed what many consider to be a core feature of your product - a feature that is still referenced in the public documentation - with no advanced notice, no reasonably viable fallback and no projected return date. Worse still, until this forum post the only place I could find any notice given that this feature was removed is hidden away in http://my.igigbook.com/news.aspx

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Phil Smith
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Re: Bulk upload status?

Post by Phil Smith »

phnord wrote:This is a huge problem for me too. I just created a 60 song index from scratch and went to upload it and found that the Bulk Upload feature had been removed. Inputting each and every one of those 60 entries by hand is tedious beyond measure; I can hardly imagine how you expect people with 300+ song indexes to manage.
I have done this very thing on numerous occasions and so have others for upwards of 20 indexes having anywhere from 75 to 1000 entries. It's time consuming, but it is what it is, the overwhelming majority of users need not worry or think about this since they are using indexes that have already been created for them and can take advantage of that convenience and of the utility it offers.
I am most likely going to end up having to reverse engineer the index format on my jailbroken iPad in order to play the gig I have lined up on Friday night. I understand having security concerns, but taking a core feature of a product that we've payed 15x the price of a usual app for offline with no notice, no return date and with the only fallback being a tool that is completely inadequate for the average user is not the way to handle them.
The Bulk Upload is not a core feature of the product moreover YOU cannot define what the core feature of the product is. You can voice an opinion about what's important to you, but YOU cannot define what the core feature of iGigBook is.

Sure it's more convenient to use Bulk Upload if you have used some other means to enter the data or have gotten it from somewhere, however as you know that feature is not available but the ability to create your own index still remains. If others were to have their way, there would be a lot more you wouldn't have access to.
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Phil Smith
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Re: Bulk upload status?

Post by Phil Smith »

phnord wrote:This is a huge problem for me too. I just created a 60 song index from scratch and went to upload it and found that the Bulk Upload feature had been removed. Inputting each and every one of those 60 entries by hand is tedious beyond measure; I can hardly imagine how you expect people with 300+ song indexes to manage.

I am most likely going to end up having to reverse engineer the index format on my jailbroken iPad in order to play the gig I have lined up on Friday night. I understand having security concerns, but taking a core feature of a product that we've payed 15x the price of a usual app for offline with no notice, no return date and with the only fallback being a tool that is completely inadequate for the average user is not the way to handle them.
The user name that you are posting under, phnord, has NEVER used the bulk upload feature, so I assume that you are either posting on behalf of someone else that has or some other user name. In any case your comments should be viewed and considered by others reading this with this fact in mind.
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Phil Smith
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Re: Bulk upload status?

Post by Phil Smith »

This feature is now available to all but a few individuals. If you happen to be one of these individuals, check the news feed at my.igigbook.com for more information. There have been some changes made. In the past if you deleted a book index entry it would also delete the song entries for that index, this is no longer the case. Now you must delete all of the song entries of a book index before you can delete the book. Why the change you ask? A number of users would upload an index, notice some errors in a few entries, and proceed to delete the entire index when it's more efficient to use the content manager to correct those entries. This change is designed to discourage this behavior.
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spinality
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Re: Bulk upload status?

Post by spinality »

This feature is now available to all but a few individuals.
Thank you for restoring this important feature so quickly. From your earlier comments, I had thought this was not likely to come back soon.

I also realize that I have been guilty of doing what you are telling us not to do.

On several occasions, I have needed to do a wholesale replacement of an index -- where a large proportion of the entries changed. In one case, the page order in the underlying book needed to change, for reasons not related to iGigBook, and this caused many of the page numbers to shift. In another case, we changed EVERY indexed name, to include a reference number that had appeared in the original file. In this situation, deleting and reloading the book seemed reasonable. Manually editing hundreds of index entries didn't seem logical, when the source file could easily be updated. Similar needs might arise again.

In the future, when this situation occurs (when an index becomes largely or totally obsolete, as opposed to correcting a few errors), what would you prefer we do? Delete all the index entries one-at-a-time, then reload them? Update the entire set of entries manually? Some books (the "classic" fakes) are static and can have their indices "bronze plated" as it were. Others evolve over time. In my case, we have some band members who still use paper books, and it takes some work to keep our pdfs and paper copies in sync. I can't prevent them from inserting and deleting pages from time to time. We tend to use other pdf readers for these situations, but those don't have the iGigBook indexing capabilities...so my preference would be to manage them with iGigBook. Thanks for any guidance.

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Phil Smith
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Re: Bulk upload status?

Post by Phil Smith »

spinality wrote:Thank you for restoring this important feature so quickly. From your earlier comments, I had thought this was not likely to come back soon.

I also realize that I have been guilty of doing what you are telling us not to do.

On several occasions, I have needed to do a wholesale replacement of an index -- where a large proportion of the entries changed. In one case, the page order in the underlying book needed to change, for reasons not related to iGigBook, and this caused many of the page numbers to shift. In another case, we changed EVERY indexed name, to include a reference number that had appeared in the original file. In this situation, deleting and reloading the book seemed reasonable. Manually editing hundreds of index entries didn't seem logical, when the source file could easily be updated. Similar needs might arise again.

In the future, when this situation occurs (when an index becomes largely or totally obsolete, as opposed to correcting a few errors), what would you prefer we do? Delete all the index entries one-at-a-time, then reload them? Update the entire set of entries manually? Some books (the "classic" fakes) are static and can have their indices "bronze plated" as it were. Others evolve over time. In my case, we have some band members who still use paper books, and it takes some work to keep our pdfs and paper copies in sync. I can't prevent them from inserting and deleting pages from time to time. We tend to use other pdf readers for these situations, but those don't have the iGigBook indexing capabilities...so my preference would be to manage them with iGigBook. Thanks for any guidance.
Why would you not just add pages to the end of the book and add additional index entries?
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spinality
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Re: Bulk upload status?

Post by spinality »

Phil Smith wrote:Why would you not just add pages to the end of the book and add additional index entries?
Different reasons.
  • In one case, the whole book is alphabetical, so new entries need to go in the appropriate slice.
  • In another case, it makes more sense to put occasional lyrics, alternate changes, alternate keys, etc. directly behind the main instrumental chart. For example, one of our guys always likes to play "Line for Lyons" in F instead of G. I like having the two pages back-to-back, so I can make one entry in the set list but then switch between the versions with one swipe if needed. There are a few cases like this, where we don't usually know about it in advance but somebody on the bandstand says "hey, would you sing this one?" or "let's ask John up to lead this." That's at a regular gig where 97% of the tunes come from the same book.
  • In another case, the pages go wherever the guys with the paper copies decide to put them. It's my job to reflect those copies on our iGigBook version. I could try to instruct them "put new pages at the back" -- but band politics are often complex, as you know, and it's often better just to go along. (Moreover, it's hard to argue with "But this is a computer file, it should be easy to put it anywhere you want." Old non-computer guys learn to expect miracles from the guys with the pocket protectors and propeller beanies.)
  • In another case, we play from a book by flipping forward and backward in the book by page number, rather than using an index (we've talked about this before). So it makes sense to have related material on adjacent pages.
At the end of the day, I guess I hope my tools will let me do whatever I need/want to do (including things I may not have thought of before, or things I didn't necessarily realize I needed at first) -- and not constrain me too greatly. I don't mind so much if my tools dictate HOW to do something (as long as it's not too burdensome or repetitive) but I am less happy if they tell me WHAT I can and cannot do. (When designing software, I've always leaned toward providing the broadest, most general, most orthogonal set of features, in expectation that they will meet new needs that I haven't thought of, rather than focusing only on the specific feature set identified on day 1. This isn't the only valid approach of course.)

Hope that is all understandable. Thanks for being so incredibly responsive on these forums. I don't know how you find time to do any actual work since you're so busy replying to posts.

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Phil Smith
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Re: Bulk upload status?

Post by Phil Smith »

spinality wrote: At the end of the day, I guess I hope my tools will let me do whatever I need/want to do (including things I may not have thought of before, or things I didn't necessarily realize I needed at first) -- and not constrain me too greatly. I don't mind so much if my tools dictate HOW to do something (as long as it's not too burdensome or repetitive) but I am less happy if they tell me WHAT I can and cannot do. (When designing software, I've always leaned toward providing the broadest, most general, most orthogonal set of features, in expectation that they will meet new needs that I haven't thought of, rather than focusing only on the specific feature set identified on day 1. This isn't the only valid approach of course.)
Perhaps we will see an app from you one day?
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